Die Sache geht weiter!
[*QUOTE*]
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"Have the German skeptics lost the plot? (PART 1)"Published Sunday 07 January 2024
Many years ago, when I was first invited to give a talk to a gathering of skeptics, I started my lecture by stating: “I am very sceptical – so much so that I am even sceptical about the skeptics.” Now it seems that my words are about to acquire a new meaning.
Since several years, I am a member of the scientific committee of the German sceptic organisation GWUP and I have observed with increasing bewilderment what is happenting to this formerly solid organization.
For me, scepticism is based on at least three elements:
free thought,
open discourse,
pursuit of the truth through criticical assessment.
The leadership of the GWUP, recent developments seem to suggest, have lost sight of these elements. It occurred after the election of the new board of the GWUP in May 2023 (
https://skepticalinquirer.org/2023/10/shakeup-among-german-skeptics). Subsequently, the open exchange of ideas made way to an atmosphere where dissent is discouraged or stifled. Examples of this phenomenon, particularly by Hümmler the newly elected chair, are becoming increasingly evident.
The incident involving the German philosopher Andreas Edmüller might serve as an example. His presentation for a GWUP regional group on ‘The WOKE Phenomenon – A frontal assault on the values of the enlightenment?’ (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljm0iqqFoqk) was met with vitriol before he even spoke. One individual even called Edmüller an “asshole” (‘Arschloch’
https://twitter.com/Diaphanoskopie/status/1715441184431067512). Hümmler, rather than apologising to Edmüller for the undue abuse, chose to lecture him on politically correct language and accuse him of spreading ‘alt-right’ talking points (
https://twitter.com/hummler/status/1719114920250265733).
Another example is the case of Stefan Kirsch, a long-standing member of GWUP. “He has been dismissed by Hümmler from his role as ‘communication manager’. Why? Because, would you believe it, he shared Edmüller’s presentation on X (formerly Twitter) (
https://twitter.com/gwup/status/1715284877375942964).
To make matters worse, Hümmler is also said to have interfered with the organizing committee’s decisions for the upcoming Skepkon conference in May 2024. He apparently insisted on removing presentations from some GWUP members who had been critical of his leadership. In addition, Hümmler repeatedly denied the GWUP’s scientific committtee to share material with the GWUP’s members.
Up to now, I have watched this embarrassing spectacle from the sidelines and deliberately stayed out of any disputes. But I do feel strongly that skeptics, of all people, must not endanger our good causes by behaving like children on an ego-trip. We are in danger of becoming the laughing stock of our opponents!
I for one have grown increasingly sceptical about the GWUP and its future – so much so that I am now seriously considering my association with this organisation. If this embarrassingly counter-productive behavior does not demonstrably change after the annual convention in May this year, I (and probably many other German skeptics) will simply depart from the ruins of this organization.
PS
(added 8/1/2024)
I have been asked to be as transparent as possible and provide evidence for the statements I made above. Let me try:
How do I know that Hümmler has interfered with the selection of the conference organising committee? Sorry, but I have been given this information in confidence; that is, I promised to not disclose the source. I tried my best to express this situation by wording my text accordingly: “Hümmler is also said to have interfered with the organizing committee’s decisions for the upcoming Skepkon conference in May 2024. He apparently insisted on removing presentations from some GWUP members who had been critical of his leadership.” Because of the interest in this matter, have now asked some people who may know about this to come forward to confirm my statement (e.g. on social media).
As to my assertion that Hümmler “repeatedly denied the GWUP’s scientific committee to share material with the GWUP’s members”, I have first and knowledge of the situation. As a member of the committee, I was copied in to all the relevant exchanges. Moreover, his refusal is also documented in the minutes of the committee.
I hope this addresses the concerns that some readers have voiced.
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https://edzardernst.com/2024/01/have-the-german-skeptics-lost-the-plot/#comment-149377[*QUOTE*]
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ama on Monday 08 January 2024 at 01:33
The situation is not limited to the GWUP. The GWUP is only ONE playfield of many. The GWUP is only one part of the whole thing.
The situation is not new at all. I all goes back years. One of the key problems, yes, we have to talk about it, is the origin of so many skeptics. You see: Many skeptics grew up in an esoteric environment. It took them some time to realize what their environment does and is, and then to get out. But one thing they mostly did not leave: the social behaviour of esoterics. That is: avoid plain facts, get aggressive, attack ad hominem, be vulgar. Just what happened to Andreas Edmüller is nothing new.
So it is far from easy to collaborate with skeptics. In the TG-1 forum, or because of the TG-1 forum, we encountered many incidents, many collisions with skeptics. I do not say GWUP, I say skeptics. Only a part of the persons was or is in the GWUP. And, wherever it was, whenever it happened, again and again sooner or later it turned out that it is impossible to collaborate with them. Because of their behaviour. Because of what they do, or what they do not do.
One of the things they do not do: research thoroughly. And be honest about facts.
I found a thread in the TG-1 forum, which I now translated for you with deepl.com. Some quirks of the translation I mended, but I did not look at every word.
The date is 2018. More than 5 years ago. Nothing new, and the GWUP isn’t even mentioned. But you will see, that what is talked about now concerning the GWUP, already years ago was going on.
This is the thread “An die Mitleser aus scienceblogs.de und anderswo”, started by Thymian:
https://www.allaxys.com/~kanzlerzwo/index.php?topic=10176..0[###/QUOTE###]
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Thymian
To the readers of scienceblogs.de and elsewhere
” on: October 08, 2018, 09:06:32 AM ”
Ladies and gentlemen, dear play-children!
Joseph Kuhn started an “experiment” yesterday:
http://scienceblogs.de/gesundheits-check/2018/10/07/ein-experiment-fragen-und-antworten-mit-christian-j-becker/[*quote*]
Health Check
An experiment: Questions and answers with Christian J. Becker
By Joseph Kuhn / 7 October 2018 / 79.
In the last few days, there have been many posts on social media by Christian J. Becker, very sharp and deliberately provocative in tone. I blocked Mr Becker here on Health Check because of this. He is now making a suggestion:
[***quote***]
“My offer to you: I’ll behave myself and your skeptics will behave themselves. We will not disrespect each other here on your blog. As soon as I violate that, you can ban me again.”
[***/quote***]
I would like to respond to this and ask that everyone try not to jump like sheep over any rhetorical sticks that may be held out, but to discuss things objectively or, if polemically, then at a reasonable niveau.
Mr Becker has formulated the first questions:
[***quote***]
“I just have a few questions for the skeptics: how do you like the film Magic Pills, what do you think is good, what is less successful? Why are globules so important for skeptics, most globule users like me pay for globules themselves (like 85%) and also relieve the social security system, e.g. by going to alternative practitioners. Why is the scientifically proven carcinogen glyphosate so important to skeptics that they defend it?”
[***/quote***]
So there is no OT, all topics go. If the discussion becomes too much of a mud fight, there is first a reminder, then an end. Clear the stage.
[*/quote*]
1. Kuhn has fallen for Becker’s stick.
2. Kuhn asks: “… then to discuss with niveau”.
Unfortunately, as usual, this thing has failed in form and content. A high standard includes above all
1. doing proper research
2. taking note of facts, even if you don’t like them
3. reporting facts instead of concealing them
4. … and so much more
Unfortunately, the “skeptics” fail completely.
In one of the comments “borstel” writes there:
[*quote*]
borstel
7 October 2018
NB: If you like it a little more hearty, the Transgallaxys forum is just fine. However, I have to admit that even I find the posts there too polemical in the long run. So please only enjoy them in homeopathic doses…
[*/quote*]
What was said again and again by friends of the TG-1 in the early days of the TG-1 is still true today:
* Every website, every forum, every blog has its own readership.
* Every website, every forum, every blog is part of a mosaic.
* The solidarity of the individual members of the mosaic makes up the whole.
* You cannot reach all surfers with one website. So you share information with the others in the mosaic and prepare and present it in your own way.
Unfortunately, openness and solidarity are not the same thing. For example, while material researched by TG-1 or its friends was immediately passed on to the others, the reverse was not the case. The valued others remained silent. Instead, they adopted content from the TG-1 and concealed the source because the TG-1 was supposedly “not reputable”. This method of dusting off other people’s content is all too familiar from Wikipedia. It was publicised in a very nice case by one of Wikipedia’s victims. TG-1 reported on it at the time:
The IT network of today’s terrorism / Wikipedia = street war of the PR mafia and falsification gangs
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~kanzlerzwo/index.php?topic=2781.msg7833#msg7833QUOTE:
[*quote*]
[…]
[*QUOTE*]
————————————————————————–
I have removed the link,
because a private page as evidence according to
WP:Vouchers is not so reliable.
————————————————————————–
[*/QUOTE*]
So: A private site (the word is SITE, but Wikipedia is known to be home to illiterates of all colours…) is “not so reliable” as a source. THAT’S WHY the LINK to this private site is deleted.
BUT in the confession there is this continuation:
[*QUOTE]
————————————————————————–
This could possibly be remedied by rephrasing,
since “only” two sentences were copied, …
————————————————————————–
[*/QUOTE*]
So: If this is reworded, the content can be copied.
But now we know (see above!) that
[*QUOTE*]
————————————————————————–
a private page as evidence according to
WP:Vouchers is not so reliable.
————————————————————————–
[*/QUOTE*]
If you steal their content and rephrase it, this flaw of private origin suddenly disappears.
[…]
[*/quote*]
“If you steal their content and reformulate it, this stigma of private origin suddenly disappears.” That’s exactly how it works. I wouldn’t call such behaviour sophisticated. More like antisocial. Interestingly, however, this is precisely the behaviour of those who claim to be so social. What do you call that? A split in consciousness? Incidentally, this is absolutely not an isolated case, but typical of the scene.
“borstel” writes: “that even I find the posts there too polemical in the long run.” That’s another matter. Firstly, as already mentioned, every piece of the mosaic is different, and that is deliberate. Secondly, there is a completely different element, one that has been explained over and over again, but has been and continues to be deliberately ignored:
Politeness is also just a weapon!
You can criticize the TG-1 for being tough. You can. Yes, the TG-1 is tough. Even tough as nails. But what about the rest of the world? What is it like?
Do the critics who are so dismissive of the TG-1 because of its toughness want to condemn the rest of humanity for toughness as well?
Do the critics who are so dismissive of the TG-1 because of its harshness want to accuse the rest of humanity of being rude, unobjective, polemical… and so on?
Even the most stupid critic will have to admit that large parts of the discussion with esoterics and other existences are very polite, sometimes even submissive, and have been since time immemorial.
Why then have the politeness, the friendliness and all the facts that were shown to the esotericists not only achieved nothing, but on the contrary led to the esotericists being able to spread further and further, to conquer the political system, to conquer legislation – and why do the esotericists THEREFORE now have a market worth billions, leaving behind more and more corpses, which, of course, are blamed on the evil “conventional medicine”?
Why?
Because politeness is also just a weapon.
Because esotericists lie about the facts.
Because esotericists abuse the justice system to suppress facts and to silence critics and, ideally, to destroy them altogether.
The esoteric scene is a dangerous parasite and leaves thousands of corpses in its wake every year. How little we hear about them shows how well oiled the network is in making the truth disappear.
Esotericism is murder.
Murder is not reserved for the Hamer scene alone, but other areas, such as homeopathy, also leave corpses behind. Thousands of them. Every year.
Should we just stand there smiling and waiting for the murderous rabble to bury us, or are we allowed to defend ourselves?
Is one allowed to defend himself? That is the question. That is the crucial question. And the answer is: NO! Because that would be impolite. Facts, bare facts, simple and provable facts are labelled lies and slander by the esotericists. Should we submit to this? Should we submit to a rabble of murderers and remain silent because the truth is “impolite”?
Should we submit to a rabble of murderers and remain silent because the truth is “impolite”?
This is THE key question, the question where the skeptics regularly and totally fail.
Interestingly, however, the skeptics are anything but polite. They even get very personal, insinuating, vulgar and obscene. You see this again and again in their forums and blogs. How can such a scene accuse others of what they themselves do all the time?
The TG-1 is tough as nails. It is – and this is well known – the toughest forum on the WWW. But one thing it is not is vulgar and obscene. The forum posts are very distanced. The forum posts are sometimes very pointed and very harsh, but because of the cause, because it’s about people’s lives, the biological lives of people.
Should we treat the scum of murderers with kid gloves? Can we justify to humanity and to the sick and the victims of bunglers and fraudsters that we treat the perpetrators with kid gloves and thereby show them “dignity” and “honour” and – de facto – give them recognition? No, of course not, because that makes you an accomplice to the perpetrators. But this is exactly what established journalism and others do with their “balance”, which is one of the worst crimes against the victims.
Ladies and gentlemen, dear play-children!
Anyone who thinks that you should tinker with something just for fun, that because it’s just for fun you don’t need to do any further research, that because it’s just for fun you suppress facts because they don’t look so nice (“The hook must please the fish and not the angler.”), who is what is called a “play child” on the net, should stay out of medicine as far as possible. Medicine is a matter of life and death. The TG-1 is not for play-children, nor will the dominatrices ever allow mental toddlers to spread here.
TG-1 is the toughest forum on the WWW. We are at the forefront of researching and working with authorities and media internationally to put a stop to fraudsters and murderers. Yes, we co-operate with the FBI and CIA.
We research and publish.
Unfortunately, researching and publishing is one of those things. We receive a lot of material, some of which is published immediately, and much of which goes into the armoury for later use. We publish. As we know from reliable sources, journalists are very bad about this. Current cases include this obscurity, for example:
Homeopathy adverts on Charité website cancelled – who was behind it?
By: Gita Neumann
18 Sep 2018
https://hpd.de/artikel/fuer-homoeopathie-bewerbung-charite-seite-steckte-dahinter-15962“Who was behind it?” Yes, who was behind it? We were told that our sources had informed a number of journalists. And us. And we, the guests of TG-1, uncovered this from the information we received and further research:
* The Georg Seifert affair at the Charité in Berlin
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~kanzlerzwo/index.php?topic=9874.msg23936#msg23936* Prof Georg Seifert at the Charité in Berlin is a liar
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~kanzlerzwo/index.php?topic=10076.0* The evidence: Georg Seifert, Angelika Eggert, the Charité and all kinds of failures…
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~kanzlerzwo/index.php?topic=10112.0* Lies of the Federal Association of the Pharmaceutical Industry are getting out of hand
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~kanzlerzwo/index.php?topic=10083.0But neither the “Tagesspiegel” in Berlin nor
http://www.hpd.de have uncovered the truth. Why are the Tagesspiegel and hpd.de covering up for the perpetrators?
Why?
And why is the Federal Association of the Pharmaceutical Industry lying, including in the form of a “press release”, writing on 13 September 2018
https://www.presseportal.de/pm/21085/4060536[*quote*]
PRESS PORTAL
BPI Federal Association of the Pharmaceutical Industry
Homeopathy is an integral part of medical therapy options
13.09.2018 – 13:26
[*/quote*]
Why?
Here is an interesting statistic from a site well worth reading:
The TOP 10 German hospitals by number of cases
https://www.kliniken.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Top_10_Fallzahlen_in_Deutschland.pnghttps://www.kliniken.de/krankenhaus/krankenhaus-report/krankenhausstatistik.htmlThe TOP 10 German hospitals by number of cases (data apparently from 2015):
1st Berlin Charité 136,947 cases
2nd Munich University Hospital 78,550 cases
3. university hospital Münster 72,209 cases
4. university hospital of the Johannes
Gutenberg University Mainz 70,790 cases
5. university hospital in Tübingen 68,934 cases
6. Augsburg University Hospital with clinics
for children and adolescents 66,571 cases
7. university hospital Heidelberg 65,755 cases
8. Klinikum Chemnitz gGmbH 64,980 cases
9th Erlangen University Hospital 63,038 cases
11th University Medical Centre Freiburg 62,796 cases
With more than 135,000 cases and more than 1,600 doctors, the Charité in Berlin is by far the largest hospital in Germany.
Patients do not go to this hospital for fun, but because they are ill. Many because they are terminally ill. Many die there. It’s a matter of life and death.
What could be read for several years on the website of the paediatric oncology department of the Charité in Berlin? Among other things, this:
http://web.archive.org/web/20110711055412/http://paedonko.charite.de:80/forschung/ag_integrative_medizin/hintergrundinformationen/homoeopathieQUOTE:
[*quote*]
From an empirical point of view, the effect of homeopathic high potencies is undisputed and an integral part of daily practice. Since the effects are maintained even in the molecule-free high potency range, are electronically transferable and amplifiable and can be stored digitally on CD-ROM, the active principle of action of homeopathic medicines can be described as “medicinal information”.
[*quote*]
How do you feel as a father or mother or as a directly affected cancer patient when you read this idiocy?
“Since the effects … are electronically transferable and amplifiable and can be digitally stored on CD-ROM”
How does that make you feel?
And: Do the citizens have no right to know what is happening there? Do the sick have no right to know what is happening there?
Why are the Tagesspiegel Berlin and
http://www.hpd.de silent?
And why are the dear and esteemed readers from scienceblogs.de and elsewhere silent?
Why?
If the homeopaths were not covered up by fraudsters and accomplices in the Bundestag, they would all have been in prison for life long ago.
Why do the dear and highly honoured readers of scienceblogs.de and elsewhere make themselves accomplices of the perpetrators through their silence?
Or are they not allowed to say all this? Because it’s “impolite”? Because it’s “polemic”?
How many deaths are you allowed to talk about without being scolded for being “impolite” or “polemical”?
Or are we not even allowed to ask this question?
Joseph Kuhn and his “experiment”
Joseph Kuhn, paid as a recognised scientist, thinks he has to conduct an experiment. Only, unfortunately, he seems to be doing it more out of playfulness than from a genuine scientific point of view. If he were really working scientifically, he would do some REAL research. And if not research himself, then consult the results of other sources. Then he would know what has been doing the rounds on Twitter for weeks: that Christian J. Becker works with Scientology methods. If Joseph Kuhn really worked scientifically, he would research this or at least mention the research results of others.
And “borstel”? Is so subtle that he doesn’t even give the URL of TG_1:
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~kanzlerzwoIs the URL of TG-1 taboo among the illustrious elite of scienceblogs?
Or is this question also not allowed to be asked?
What Christian Joachim Becker (Christian J. Becker) is up to has been described in TG-1 in several threads. Among others here:
Blackmail, coercion, defamation – what PR is up to today
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~kanzlerzwo/index.php?topic=10042.0As far as the methods of Christian Joachim Becker (Christian J. Becker) and the connection to Scientology * are concerned, you should read here:
The Scientology File
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~kanzlerzwo/index.php?board=205.0The latter link is even given at the top of the forum pages.
Ladies and gentlemen, dear play-children,
The TG-1 is the toughest forum on the WWW. We save lives – while others just indulge in their illustrious pastimes.
Criticism, when it comes, requires above all … the truthfulness of those who express it.
* PS: Rumour has it that the constitutional protection agencies of several federal states have also been called in.
” Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 09:22:44 AM by Thymian ”
. Im Angesicht von Gewalt ist Höflichkeit gegenstandslos.
. At face with violence politeness is pointless.
. (User TNT in the former CDU forum)
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[###/QUOTE###]
Strong stuff, isn’t it? Loaded over the years like a ruby laser, and then: Blitz!
After the thread was done, the skeptics kept silent. The details mentioned by Thymian … nobody cared about them. All the mistakes and fouls by the skeptics were not taken care of, were not repaired. Not even commented. Total silence. The same is true for the journalists.
Neither skeptics nor journalists research thoroughly.
Neither skeptics nor journalists really go down to the real facts. They only enjoy talking. It all is a play for them. And just that is a sign that they really do not care about what is going on, they only want to have their fun. Thymian pointed this out clearly.
To say it in one word: The whole scene is a kindergarten.
But we are faced with real life. In the field of medicine this means pain, misery and death. Like a child with cancer is in the oncology department of the Charite in Berlin. Why did no-one write about WHO is responsible for the homeopathic mess committed there? The facts were known. They had been researched thoroughly, shown – with pieces of proof – to the public, shown to the skeptics, shown to the journalists. But the skeptics and the journalists kept silence. As far as we know in the Berlin Senate nothing happened at all, and in the Charite just the same.
How can we get fraud out of practiced medicine, when frauds are supported by silence?
How can we get fraud out of practiced medicine, when facts are concealed?
Forget the GWUP. There is no use spoiling time with them. Do something real: investigate and write. Investigate thoroughly, write with precision, comprehensible. Yes, write satire, write humour, even get tough, if necessary (and it IS necessary so often!). But stay with the facts. No meta-babble, just plain facts, with loads of pieces of proof. Babble does not convince anyone, but facts can change a mind.
And forget politeness. Like TNT wrote: “At face with violence politeness is pointless.”
Found in Usenet:
“I am polite,” the bullet said. “I knock, before I enter.”
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Edzard on Monday 08 January 2024 at 08:02
can you provide a 100 word summary of your points please?
Reply
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ama on Monday 08 January 2024 at 09:54
A summary? With so few words? That would only be some meta-stuff. All the facts would be missing. And THAT is THE problem we are faced with: people are bathed in meta-babble. That leads us nowhere.
Only facts teach, only facts convince. Anything else would be some fairy tale. And would make us attackable. Because we do not provide enough proof. Which is one of the problem of the skeptics: they do not have enough proofs, they are not thorough enough. They parrot the same babble over and over again – just like the esoterics.
I write about the war with language for over 2 decades now. Language is a weapon. People must learn how to use it. And we, the authors, must observe what and how and how much the readers REALLY learn from what we write. Some control of efficiency. But about nobody does that. One more problem we are faced with.
Did you view the video (on Youtube) with the speech by Andreas Edmüller on Matauranga Maori? Too many words, not enough facts. What do people learn from that? Merely nothing.
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Author
Topic: Edzard Ernst ist sauer auf die Skeptiker (Read 171 times)