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# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 1:19 am
“Excuses, excuses… being in a rural area did not affect this person:”
Oh. Good. Grief. Do you now want me to debate the fact that these poor people do not care about the news. Not enough to spend money on it? I’m not making excuses - I’m telling you what the excuses of these people are. WTF?
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# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 1:22 am
“Please work on your reading comprehension.”
Work on yours! I’ve stated quite plainly that my 9 year old will debate you on current events including politics. Find me a rural GA just entering 4th grade public schooler who even talks to adults - much less debate them.
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# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 1:25 am
The phrase is traditionally “bear with me”, I have no interest in seeing you without clothing:
Okay well let me retract that statement and change it to hold your f’n horses.
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# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 1:29 am
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/4743.php---------------------------------------------
# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 1:41 am
http://www.kellymom.com/newman/how_breastmilk_protects_newborns.html---------------------------------------------
# Harriet Hallon 06 Sep 2008 at 12:13 pm
Dana.
Scientific medicine supports breast feeding, and all the major professional organizations recommend it. Passive antibodies offer some protection but are not a guarantee. Yes, babies are susceptible to measles before they are old enough to get the vaccine, but if every child got MMR at the appropriate age then the disease would die out iin the whole society and babies would never be exposed. If everyone were vaccinated, measles would eventually vanish and then we would no longer have to use the vaccine. That’s what happened with smallpox: we got vaccinated so our descendents would never have to be vaccinated again.
Also, you seem to be hung up on the fact that not everyone who is exposed gets a disease. Perhaps it will help to think of it like car accidents: not everyone who speeds has an accident. Who catches a disease depends on a lot of factors, including chance and luck.
It is very sad when a parent’s misguided beliefs lead to a child’s death, like the chiropractor I know of who treated his child’s meningitis with spinal manipulation. If you don’t vaccinate your children against tetanus, chances are they will be lucky and never get it. But they might. If you don’t insure your house, chances are you will be lucky and your house will never burn down. But it might. If you are willing to bear the consequences of losing your house, then don’t buy insurance. If you are willing to bear the consequences of a child getting tetanus, then don’t vaccinate.
Tetanus only affects one individual. The problem is when not vaccinating for some other diseases, not vaccinating your child endangers the public health of us all.
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# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 12:53 pm
“The law DOES require doctors to report vaccine reactions.”
Really, can you copy and paste it here for all to see?
“You seem to be badly misinformed.”
No, I am not. Prove me wrong - please.
“Where are you getting your information?”
From the old practice I used to use with over 30 Pediatricians and from the new practice I use which only has 4. And from countless letters and emails to the CDC, AAP and a couple of state reps (who also did not know that reactions are not reported).
When my son’s chicken pox vaccine failed, I was told that the doctors do not have time for the paperwork…and besides, we don’t know for sure if it was just a vaccine “failure” or if it were a “reaction”. How does one report that???
You would THINK that the fact that a vaccinated child got exactly what he was supposedly protected against would warrant some sort of system in place. Don’t they WANT TO KNOW how many failures occur and wouldn’t they WANT TO KNOW if a particular vaccine had a high failure rate. One would think so. BUT NO! I wrote to the CDC and ask them exactly how they got their numbers when they spouted off about how low vaccine failures were…they got the numbers from a couple of trials. ONE of those trials - at least one - only had 10 (ten) participants!
In other words, when you read the word “rare” - you would be sadly mistaken to believe they have evidence of this. They do not.
And if its a law then the courts would be FULL of cases right now - just wait until parents find out about all the law-breaking that’s been going on in the medical industry. It is not a law, if it is then it is not followed. I am speaking for more than just my state - it is NOT obeyed if it is a law. They neither have time or money in a typical pediatric practice to fill out this paperwork.
I have spoken to countless parents on the internet who were angry because they themselves had to fill out the paperwork and send it to VAERS. Many stated that the Pediatrician himself said that the adverse reaction occurred but told the parent to do the paperwork. A few of them said the doctor would refuse to admit that an adverse reaction even happened. We all know this happens constantly. So there’s your reporting system! Even the very obvious reactions do NOT get reported.
But hey, the professionals can get away with this by brushing aside any and ALL “anecdotal evidence”!
If there’s a law then its certainly not being obeyed. I would love to see it in writing. If you believe this nonsense then I am sure you will provide it here for us all to see.
And while you’re at it, include some information about the vaccine reporting/non-reporting police who are out there daily, checking Pediatric Practices all over the country to insure that the paperwork is kept up!!!
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# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 12:54 pm
“Passive antibodies offer some protection but are not a guarantee.”
Vaccines are certainly no guarantee.
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# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 1:02 pm
“Scientific medicine supports breast feeding”
They support it, but just ten years ago - how much of a student’s time is actually spent studying it when they go to medical school? Even an OBGYN - how much time?
We can put it in writing for hospital staff, even train nurses to help the Mom learn the skill — but in many hospitals, its done only when the Mom requests the help. Small hospitals do not even have staff trained to help. I’ve heard stories of staff who are supposedly trained but know so very little. My own story tells THAT tale!
You seem to think like a politician and believe that because something is in writing that its actually practiced. I don’t live in that make believe world! I’m angry at the government and at the medical community because they are failing the human race by allowing all these politics to change the very core of what it means to be a physician.
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# HCNon 06 Sep 2008 at 1:15 pm
Dana, I asked for real science, not random websites. And you did NOT answer my question, cut and pasted:
Since you claim to know more than us, can you tell me how well breastfeeding protects against pertussis and haemophilus influenzae? If breastmilk protects so well, why are those two diseases so horrible to babies? I really want to know.
Over a dozen babies in the USA die from pertussis, from
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/Slides/Pertussis10.ppt#9 … Slide 9. Of the 82 deaths from pertussis during 2004 through 2006, 69 were of infants under the age of three months, while the remaining 13 were older than three months.
So again, if breastmilk is so great, why did those 69 babies die?
By the way, all of my children were breastfed for at least a year, the younger up to two years. And still, my fully breastfed daughter got very sick from chicken pox when she was six months old.
I looked on the USAID website and the HPAkids website, and pertussis is not even mentioned, and I did not even see any references. Message boards do not even count as a scientific evidence. How does that answer my question?
Where is the real evidence that the DTaP is worse than pertussis, diphtheria and tetanus? Where is the real scientific evidence that the MMR is worse than measles, mumps and rubella?
Also, I said real science, not random websites. The websites you mentioned are not adequate and not science papers. Please try harder.
Thank you.
Also, since you seem to have access to the internet even in your rural area you have absolutely no excuse to not keep up with the news. If you wish to fully educate your children you need to know what happens in the world. That includes knowing what happened in the UK and Japan when vaccination was reduced below herd immunity. If your son participates in Little League you would have heard that measles from Japan spread to other people:
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2146005020080221Plus, even rural areas have these awesome places called “libraries”. I’ve used the library in a very rural mountanous area just on the east slope of the Cascades (not far from where William O. Douglass grew up). My sister-in-law worked for the county library in Colorado that included some very rural areas. About ten years ago some idiots wanted to cut taxes by closing all the libraries in their rural Eastern Washington county. This caused a big uproar among all the homeschoolers in the area who depended on their local libraries (which are able to bring materials from all over the county). They defeated that idiocy in the voting booth, and the libraries stayed open.
Libraries are great resources… use and support your local library. And if you are unfortunate to not have a library in your county, get together with you local homeschooling organization and fix that problem!
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# HCNon 06 Sep 2008 at 1:30 pm
Dana said (do you see how easy it is to credit the quote, please try it): “They support it, but just ten years ago - how much of a student’s time is actually spent studying it when they go to medical school? Even an OBGYN - how much time?”
My boys were born 20 and 18 years ago, breastfeeding was definitely encouraged. When my oldest boy was transported by ambulance from the hospital he was born in to the Children’s Hospital’s Infant Intensive Care Unit… the maternity care nurse came to my room with a breast pump to help me provide him breast milk.
During the next week while my newborn baby was in the hospital I used the breast pumps that were available for use near the infant care wards (my son was transferred to the Intermediate Infant Care Unit). They also provided me references to where I could rent a breast pump to use at home.
Both hospitals had nurses who helped with lactating, and even after I brought him home there was follow-up that helped with nursing. The only bottles that baby got were the two ounces used to give him his medication (one ounce in the morning and one in the evening, the minimum amount that could be mixed up is two ounces).
Also, don’t pull the “I’m in a rural area” whine. That Children’s Hospital provides care for several states. In the ward my son was there were babies (and families) from Alaska, Idaho and Montana. In the subsequent times my son was hospitalized there I met parents from some very rural areas.
You are still making statements without evidence. It seems that your knowledge on medicine, medical care, breastfeeding support and other things are very shallow. You need to expand your education. I would suggest that you stay off the internet, go to your library and start working through the lists of books I posted.
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# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 1:30 pm
“not vaccinating your child endangers the public health of us all.”
Cause what, you don’t trust the vaccine to PROTECT you?
Cause all us unvaccinated are walking around carrying disease that will cause your vaccine to what - not work?
There is no logic in that statement, none at all.
Actually, all you vaccinated people are endangering MY health and the health of future generations.
The women in the breastfeeding studies that proved to temporarily pass the immunities from disease to their nursing infants were women who actually got the disease. We don’t yet know if the same will occur in women who got the vaccine instead of the actual diseases.
A recent study suggests that the cases of Shingles among the elderly and the cases among the not yet elderly are a DIRECT link to the vaccine. They say that when a parent is exposed to the virus (via kids and grandkids) that it helps to surpress the Shingles. I’m glad I got my two exposures and I’m glad I got the real disease as a child.
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# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 2:04 pm
“If you are willing to bear the consequences of a child getting tetanus, then don’t vaccinate.”
Tell me. Why don’t we use the immunoglobulin vaccine to treat a patient in an emergency situation instead of giving the multiple childhood doses knowing they wear off, knowing patients don’t get boosters.
Aren’t most doctors able to properly flush a wound and remove the dirt?
I mean, gee look at how low the risk is!
The reason there were no deaths from Tetanus last year and the years prior is because we birth babies in clean conditions, we LIVE in clean conditions, We CLEAN our wounds properly with running water which did not exist in the past. The risk of contracting Tetanus for most Americans is EXTREMELY LOW. Yet we won’t pull not ONE vaccine from the schedule.
It’s sickening.
Babies do not need this vaccine. Adults in the Military and in the medical profession and a few other professions do.
There is an emergency vaccine for Tetanus. Nobody seems to know about it though. It’s not part of the vaccine-pushing protocol.
Why does it have to be all or nothing in this country??? We treat all patients like they are the same, we treat all students as if they all have the same learning style. Round peg in square hole is NOT working, yet we keep doing it, year after year after year.
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# David Gorskion 06 Sep 2008 at 2:17 pm
Dana,
You are rapidly becoming tiresome. We do virtually no moderating of comments on SBM, but your flooding the comments with antivax talking points and misinformation is rapidly reaching the point where you are bringing down the level of discourse that we try to maintain here.
Your offense is not disagreeing with us, by the way, it is flooding the comments with long antivax screeds and thus trying to drown out voices who disagree with you.
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# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 2:18 pm
“Dana, the story I linked to was about 145 deaths a year due to chicken pox in the 1990’s before the vaccine was introduced in 1995.”
I’ve read some stuff that suggest the real killer was the treatment of the disease, and not the disease itself. Its really interesting reading. I’ll try to find something.
I also have some books that say we should not be treating fevers accompanied by skin rash with any type of OTC pain relievers or fever reducers.
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# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 2:20 pm
Oh OK fine. I just tried to answer all the questions asked of me. Too bad nobody in return bothered to answer mine with any solid evidence.
Nice! Really!
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# HCNon 06 Sep 2008 at 2:24 pm
Dana said (see how easy that is? Try it!): “A recent study suggests that the cases of Shingles among the elderly and the cases among the not yet elderly are a DIRECT link to the vaccine. ”
Please tell us what that study was. Give us the title, author, journal, data and whatever needed for us to check it out.
Dana said earlier in an attempt to answer my questions: “Gee, I’m thinking you can just do a search yourself can’t you?”
Actually, I contend that vaccines are safer than the diseases and save money. They also prevent disability and death. The reasons I have those opinions are due to these papers:
http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/159/12/1136, which is:
Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005 Dec;159(12):1136-44.
Economic evaluation of the 7-vaccine routine childhood immunization schedule in the United States, 2001. … “Routine childhood immunization with the 7 vaccines was cost saving from the direct cost and societal perspectives, with net savings of 9.9 billion dollars and 43.3 billion dollars, respectively. Without routine vaccination, direct and societal costs of diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, H influenzae type b, poliomyelitis, measles, mumps, rubella, congenital rubella syndrome, hepatitis B, and varicella would be 12.3 billion dollars and 46.6 billion dollars, respectively.”
and:
http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/160/3/302 , which is:
Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006 Mar;160(3):302-9.
Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation…. “Approximately 1 in 1000 children with clinical measles develops encephalitis.36, 39 Although most children with encephalitis recover without sequelae, approximately 15% die and 25% of survivors develop complications such as MR.39 We assumed that approximately 1 in 5000 cases of measles leads to MR. “… “With regard to natural history, Hib meningitis was once the leading cause of acquired MR in the United States. Slightly more than half of the Hib meningitis invasive cases presented as meningitis, and one third of children with Hib meningitis went on to have MR. Approximately 1 in 10 children died from Hib meningitis.12, 39
Effective conjugate vaccines were licensed for use in the United States for children aged at least 18 months in December 1987 and for infants aged at least 2 months in October 1990.42 Widespread use of each vaccine quickly followed licensure, and by 1993, there was evidence of a dramatic decrease in the number of cases of Hib meningitis.42 ”
If you have anything of this caliber that shows that vaccines are causing more problems than the diseases, then please present it. Remember, no anecdotes, no news stories, no message boards and no random websites… just real scientific evidence.
Dana continued on the same strain: “Answer me this - How many hours would you say a MD has to study the topic of breastfeeding in his or her practice?”
Well, breastfeeding is a hot research subject. A search on PubMed for “breastfeeding” brings up over 26000 hits.
By the way, I missed the Mescape article: pertussis and Hib are not HIV, I know you may have been confused by the similarity between HIV and Hib… and the question was why even with breastfeeding do those babies die?
Also, “kellymom” is not a scientific journal.
Also, some recommended reading for you and your son:
Roald Dahl’s autobiography “Boy”
Lois Lowry’s “The Silent Boy”
J507.2 Sw246N 2001 Nibbling on Einstein’s brain : the good, the bad & the bogus in science /
FIG HADDEN The curious incident of the dog in the night-time / by Haddon, Mark. Book
And for you:
362.42 Deaf like me / by Spradley, Thomas S.
610.92 T6979o 2004 On call : a doctor’s days and nights in residency /
610.92 Y843Y 2004 What patients taught me : a medical student’s journey /
616.85882 G885U 2007 Unstrange minds : remapping the world of autism /
618.928588 COL Not even wrong : adventures in autism / Paul Collins
B G378L 2004 Making time : Lillian Moller Gilbreth, a life beyond “C
977.031 L3354C 2004 The children’s blizzard /
FIC MOON The speed of dark /
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# HCNon 06 Sep 2008 at 2:38 pm
Dana said “Oh OK fine. I just tried to answer all the questions asked of me. Too bad nobody in return bothered to answer mine with any solid evidence.
Nice! Really!”
But you never did answer any of my questions with real scientific evidence.
I also gave you lots of papers showing how reduction of vaccination brought back the return of measles to Japan and diphtheria to former Soviet countries. How is that not solid evidence? In addition there were news reports on the spread of polio from Nigeria and that measles was now endemic to the UK. Those were only news reports, but still it shows that diseases come back when vaccines go down.
I also showed that vaccines save money by reducing hospital and medical costs of treating the actual diseases, and that measles and mumps do cause disability and death.
I also gave a link to a table of a real paper that showed that unvaccinated kids do get tetanus from things like bug bits and scrapes… and the table also showed how may days and weeks they were on a ventilator.
I also showed you how pertussis still kills babies under the age of three months. And yet for some reason you think breastfeeding is the only protecting they need.
I also produced a list suggested reading that have much information on the diseases, history of the diseases and the development of medicine in relation to those diseases.
And yet, you produce websites of questionable accuaracy that do not relate to the questions at all. Also, you whine about where you live and the lack of resources — all the time while posting on the internet (by the way, our county library also lets you check out electronic books, which would save a drive).
And some of the websites that looked scientific were questionable. For instance, a check on PubMed for “breastfeeding HIV” brings up almost 1500 cites. One of them was ” Acta Paediatr. 2008 Jul 30. [Epub ahead of print]
Early cessation of breastfeeding to prevent postnatal transmission of HIV: a recommendation in need of guidance.”
Is it our fault that you have a closed mind and refuse to look at evidence and documentation counter to your beliefs?
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# Harriet Hallon 06 Sep 2008 at 3:23 pm
Dana has thrown out so many false and misleading statements it would be too time-consuming to respond to every one. I’ll just say a few things:
Doctors are required by the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 to report adverse reactions to vaccines. You can look it up.
“Vaccines are certainly no guarantee.” No one said they were. They greatly reduce the risk but do not eliminate it. They can only eliminate the risk in cases like smallpox where high vaccination rates allowed the eradication of the disease.
Scientific medicine supported breast feeding far more than 10 years ago. I don’t think there was ever a time when breast-feeding was not recommended over bottle-feeding, although science does recognize that bottle-feeding is a reasonable option for women who can’t or don’t want to breast feed.
Dana does not see the logic behind the statement that not vaccinating your child endangers the public health of us all. That shows that Dana has failed to understand the concept of herd immunity.
Dana seems to think that there is a difference between immunity derived from having a disease and immunity due to vaccination. Is there? We can measure both kinds of immunity by the same blood test. The numbers and kinds of antibodies are equivalent. Is there any evidence that a vaccinated woman’s breast milk is less protective than the breast milk of a woman who had the disease? I don’t think so.
Dana thinks immunoglobulin is a vaccine. It isn’t. It’s essentially a one-time infusion of antibodies; once they are used up, the body doesn’t produce any more. It is far better to prevent tetanus with a vaccine than to give immunoglobulin. It’s ridiculous to say that nobody knows about immunoglobulin, because it’s standard medical practice to use it for unvaccinated patients and when a patient’s vaccination status is unknown
Hygiene does not prevent tetanus, although it reduces the risk. Even in vaccinated patients, there is good evidence to support giving a tetanus booster even after thoroughly cleaning a contaminated wound.
Dana’s objections to vaccines are ideological, poorly reasoned, and not supported by credible evidence from scientific studies. This kind of thinking has led to the recent resurgence of vaccine-preventable diseases. If this kind of thinking had been allowed to interfere with smallpox vaccination, smallpox would not have been eradicated. If it were not for this kind of thinking, we might already have succeeded in totally eradicating diseases like polio and measles. And then we could do what Dana wants and not vaccinate for those diseases.
Anti-vaccine propaganda is not just a matter of a difference in opinion, it’s a threat to our public health. These are dangerous ideas that can hurt and kill people.
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# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 3:50 pm
“According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, only 2.1% of adults aged 18 to 64 are immunized against tetanus, diphtheria and whooping cough, even though since 2006 there has been a combination vaccine that can protect against all three.”
2.1% of adults - what’s the level for so-called herd immunity?
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# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 3:56 pm
One problem is a lack of any national system to promote and monitor adult vaccination. While the federal Vaccines for Children Program provides vaccines at no cost to children who can’t afford them, and carefully monitors supply and demand, “the infrastructure to ensure the adult-vaccination pipeline is woefully inadequate,” says L.J. Tan, director, Infectious Disease, Immunology, and Molecular Medicine at the AMA. He says there is currently little coordination between federal public health agencies, private medical providers, and the private companies that make adult vaccines.
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# weingon 06 Sep 2008 at 4:03 pm
“Anti-vaccine propaganda is not just a matter of a difference in opinion, it’s a threat to our public health. These are dangerous ideas that can hurt and kill people.”
I disagree. These are dangerous ideas that do hurt and kill people.
Two more points:
I’ve been practicing medicine over 24 years, and all the cases of shingles I’ve seen have been from chickenpox not the vaccine. That does not mean it can’t occur after the vaccine as it is a live virus vaccine.
I wonder how Dana would feel about getting serum sickness from immunoglobulin.
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# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 4:03 pm
The FDA limits the concentration of aluminum in IV feeding solutions to twenty-five micrograms per liter. Consider that an adult on an IV would receive about a liter per day; this means the maximum amount of aluminum that an adult should receive in a particular day is twenty-five micrograms.
Robert Sears, one of the Sears family clan of physicians, recently published The Vaccine Book: Making the Right Decision for Your Child. He points out that a two-month-old baby receiving her first big round of shots will receive a total aluminum dose of 295 to 1875 micrograms, depending upon the brands and combinations of vaccines given. The same applies to the shots commonly given at four and six months of age. “No one has actually studied vaccine amounts of aluminum in healthy human infants to make sure it is safe have they?
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# HCNon 06 Sep 2008 at 4:07 pm
Dana wrote “According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, only 2.1% of adults aged 18 to 64 are immunized against tetanus, diphtheria and whooping cough,”
Again, you quote something without saying where it is from.
I am not vaccinated for pertussis because I got my Td tetanus booster in February 2005, and the Tdap was not available until October 2006:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5540a10.htmNow if everyone updated their tetanus booster every ten years, and it the Tdap has only been used on adults since Oct. 2006, why would you expect everyone to rush and and get the Tdap less than ten years after the Td? It would seem that only 20% of those who do keep up their tetanus boosters would have had the Tdap. Unfortunately, not everyone keeps their tetanus boosters up to date. As shown here, a bit over half of the adults keep up their tetanus coverage:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/stats-surv/nis/downloads/nis-adult-summer-2007.pdf … by the way there was a reminder in the newspaper today for gardeners to make sure their tetanus boosters were current.
So when did you last have a Td tetanus booster? Are you going to get a Tdap to protect yourself and your children?
(by the way, all three of my teenage children have had the Tdap vaccine, it was the first time my oldest has received protection for pertussis, it had been denied to him earlier due to his seizure history)
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# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 4:10 pm
About NSAID’s
http://www.garynull.com/documents/Vaccines/ChickenPoxWhy.htm---------------------------------------------
# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 4:16 pm
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/106/2/e28---------------------------------------------
# weingon 06 Sep 2008 at 4:31 pm
Dana,
If you are afraid of Aluminum, you can look for vaccines that have lower Aluminum content. Your IV solution example is a little strange. What’s the point? Why are you trying to dehydrate someone by giving them only a liter of fluid a day? Aluminum is not a daily requirement. You can feed a person via IV indefinitely. You don’t give the vaccines on a daily basis.
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# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 4:40 pm
Don’t worry, I only have a few more. I was working on your replies yesterday and never sent the information. Instead of taking too much of your space to back-up what I’ve said, I’ll just send links that have sources.
You asked me what toxic ingredients were in the vaccines. Well here’s your list:
http://www.informedchoice.info/cocktail.htmlIt can be verified by reading the package inserts for each shot.
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# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 4:43 pm
weing
I was trying to post only a short post so I didn’t include it all.
Yes, it is a little strange. Strange that the government would allow so much in the vaccines but then regulate the very small amount to be given in adult IV’s.
# weingon 06 Sep 2008 at 5:58 pm
You missed the point. Do you know how to add?
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# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 6:17 pm
Chickenpox
Look back to the time of the earliest humans and you’ll find chickenpox. Anywhere you go on the planet, you find human beings who carry and share the virus. No remote village or tribe on Earth has ever been discovered to be free of this virus. Quite an achievement! For the virus…
Scientists have studied small, isolated populations, trying to understand how the virus survives; it has a unique survival strategy we call “shingles”.
There are some viruses that need a large pool of humans for successful survival. Once everyone has had the disease, the virus will actually “die out” as a result of herd immunity. This is one reason why big cities have always been joyous playing grounds for disease. A never-ending supply of new bodies keeps flowing in, ready to catch whatever is currently going around. Put that same virus in a tiny and unchanging population on a remote island and the new bodies will quickly run out. Once everyone has been infected and become immune, the virus has nowhere to go and disease transmission is stopped. End of the road for that bug.
No end to chickenpox, though. It has an amazing method of ensuring that the next generation of humans will be infected. Here is an example of how it works: Amongst the isolated crofters of the Shetland Islands off the coast of Scotland in the early 1900’s, where the families lived far away from one another, the kids caught chickenpox, not from other children who caught it from other children, but from an adult with shingles. (1)
Shingles
Most people on this planet had chickenpox as children, but not everyone comes down with shingles. Before the vaccine it was mainly an affliction of old age. Those who died before age 50 missed out, and even those who lived to be quite elderly had no more than a 50% chance of having shingles.
Merck: What is Shingles?
About half of the nearly 1 million Shingles cases in the United States each year occur in people aged 60 years and older. 1 out of 2 people living to age 85 will have Shingles.
Merck: Who is at risk for Shingles?
Of these 1,000,000 cases, 40% to 50% occur in people 60 years of age and older.
Aside from folks who live a long time, who else is likely to succumb to shingles?
Let’s review some studies:
Pediatricians come down with shingles at one-half to one-eighth of the usual rate. (2) People with kids get less shingles. (3) If regular exposure to children with chickenpox prevents shingles, and varicella infection is found in every population on earth, then lack of exposure to children with chickenpox can logically be inferred to indirectly cause shingles. The mechanism is demonstrated here (4):
Resistance to reinfection with varicella-zoster virus (VZV) was evaluated in immune adults who had household exposure to varicella. Sixty-four percent of 25 adults exposed to varicella had a fourfold or greater rise in IgG antibody to VZV or had a high initial IgG antibody titer to VZV that declined by fourfold. IgM antibody was detected in only 12% of 25 VZV-immune subjects. Seventy percent of 23 subjects exposed to varicella had IgA antibody to VZV compared with 13% of 23 subjects with antibody to VZV who had no recent exposure (P less than 0.001, chi 2 test). Enhanced cellular immunity was documented by an increase in lymphocyte transformation to VZV antigen from a mean +/- SE index of 7.8 +/- 1.30 to 15.3 +/- 2.56 (P = 0.01, paired t-test). The increase in immunity to VZV in many immune subjects exposed to VZV suggests the occurrence of subclinical reinfection.
and here (5):
Whether reexposure of varicella-immune persons to varicella-zoster virus would protect against or predispose to development of zoster was analyzed. The rate of zoster in 511 leukemic recipients of varicella vaccine who had 1 or > 1 dose of varicella vaccine and in those who did or did not have a household exposure to varicella was determined. A Kaplan-Meier life-table analysis revealed that the incidence of zoster was lower in those given > 1 dose of vaccine (P 1 dose of vaccine were highly protective (P < .01) against zoster. Thus, the risk of zoster is decreased by reexposure to varicella-zoster virus, either by vaccination or by close exposure to varicella.
So, someone had chickenpox as a child. They encounter a child with chickenpox. Their immunity to the virus is boosted. Later, when this same person’s immune system goes down a bit, from age or any other cause, and the virus attempts to come crawling out of latency and re-emerge as shingles, the virus fails. No shingles. There is another factor, described here (6):
Periodic episodes of subclinical reactivation of VZV from the ganglia occur through an individual’s lifetime, serving as immune boosters that increase the cell-mediated immune response to VZV… elderly adults have similar episodes of transient asymptomatic VZV viremia…. host factors are more important in determining whether the individual with a latent infection develops symptomatic VZV reactivation as HZ.
Host factors include overall health and immune function. We can hope that elderly people in vigorous health may be able to continue to avoid shingles even in the absence of circulating chickenpox, but the future is uncertain. Before the vaccine for chickenpox, 50% of the small group who lived 85 years or longer did so without experiencing zoster. This good fortune may or may not continue.
For a lot of us, however, lack of exposure to chickenpox, means waning immunity and the likelihood that the lurking chickenpox virus will reemerge as shingles. All adults over age (60) are recommended to receive Zostavax, a souped up version of the chickenpox vaccine, because the manufacturers hope it will mimic previous community exposure to chickenpox and put a stop to the growing incidence of shingles among adolescents, adults and older people.
Some questions spring to mind…
What has mass vaccination against chickenpox in children really done to shingles in adults? Is the emerging trend of dealing with shingles at an ever earlier age, a good tradeoff? Is a lifetime of vaccines to prevent this the true path to optimum health? The Brits are currently trying to decide this question–whether to add or not to add the varicella vaccine to their schedule. (7)
The group discussed published data from the USA. These studies indicate that mass childhood vaccination has reduced the incidence of varicella. The data are also consistent with modelling studies that have predicted an increase in zoster as a result of reduced virus prevalence and hence decreased opportunities for boosting of immunity to zoster by natural infection. In two studies where varicella rates were shown to decrease, there was also a significant increase in zoster post varicella vaccination.
The group noted, however, that the available USA data are not sufficiently robust to be able to estimate the full impact of vaccination.
This isn’t the end of the thrill ride we’re on with the chickenpox vaccine. No, the vaccine can actually cause shingles! (
Results. All of 57 vaccinees with breakthrough varicella, clinically diagnosed on the basis of a generalized maculopapular or vesicular rash, had wild-type VZV infection based on analysis of viral DNA. The Oka vaccine strain of VZV was not identified in any of these cases. In contrast, in 32 patients with zosteriform rashes, the vaccine strain was identified in 22 samples, and the wild-type strain was identified in 10 samples. Conclusions. Wild-type virus was identified in all generalized rashes occurring after the immediate 6-week postvaccination period. When reactivation of vaccine strain occurred, it presented as typical zoster.
Chickenpox vaccination can and does result in shingles outbreaks. And if anyone in the world has shingles they can infect another person with chickenpox. The shingles–chickenpox–shingles cycle guarantees that we will have to vaccinate everyone against chickenpox forever and ever or chickenpox will return. That sums up the benefits of the chickenpox vaccine and leaves us wondering, what unforeseen consequences might Zostavax (the shingles vaccine) have hidden under its belt?
The varicella virus has adapted over millions of years to re-emerge as shingles (herpes zoster) in elderly adults. Adding the vaccine into the equation seems to push shingles into younger age groups. Will we have repeated shingles throughout life? Will that mean repeated Zostavax boosters down through the years? One scientist thinks so and recommends this (6):
…the more effective the varicella vaccine is in reducing varicella, the more imperative is the need for an effective zoster vaccine as a means of boosting VZV-specific cell immunity responses…
…therefore health officials need to devise a cost-effective universal varicella vaccination program in coordination with a zoster booster vaccine intervention strategy that exceeds the level of natural boosting that occurred when wild-type varicella circulated in the community.
Hurrah! Two vaccines. Twice the cost. Twice the risk for adverse reactions. More than twice the risk because we will all need boosters. Start at one year of age with a chickenpox vaccine, boost it at school age, boost again at adolescence (not yet in the schedule, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was added) and then start giving the zoster boosters to adults. The age of the zoster booster will have to go lower and lower of course, as shingles pops out in younger and younger age groups.
Do we have any say in the matter?
Is this listed on the “Vaccine Information Statement” we’re given to make sure we’re “informed vaccine consumers”?
Why not?
(1) Varicella Zoster Virus: Out of Africa and into the Research Laboratory.
(2) Incidence of herpes zoster in pediatricians and history of reexposure to varicella-zoster virus in patients with herpes zoster.
(3) Exposure to varicella boosts immunity to herpes-zoster: Implications for mass vaccination against chickenpox.
(4) Immunologic evidence of reinfection with varicella-zoster virus.
(5) The protective effect of immunologic boosting against zoster: An analysis in leukemic children who were vaccinated against chickenpox.
(6) Herpes Zoster Ophthalmicus Natural History, Risk Factors, Clinical Presentation, and Morbidity Ophthalmology, Thomas J. Liesegang, Volume 115, Number 2, Supplement, February 2008.
(7) Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation: Minutes of the Varicella / Herpes Zoster sub-group - 4 December 2007
(
Viral strain identification in varicella vaccinees with disseminated rashes.
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# Danaon 06 Sep 2008 at 6:18 pm
“Since you claim to know more than us, can you tell me how well breastfeeding protects against pertussis…”
I don’t know, could it be that the Mom had the vaccine instead the actual virus? I’ve never said that immunity passed from Mom’s vaccine would protect a baby through breastfeeding. I also stated that this immunity is temporary and is different for each baby.
Kellymom’s articles are always backed up with sources, usually Le Leche. I’m sorry if didn’t send you one that included sources - or did you just not go to the bottom and look for them?
I didn’t go to the Le Leche site because I know some people are too ignorant to view them as “a reliable source” even when they include sources that are.
“Also, you whine about where you live and the lack of resources — all the time while posting on the internet (by the way, our county library also lets you check out electronic books, which would save a drive).” My nine year old has better reading comprehension than you. I never whined about where I live, I happen to love it here. All I’ve tried to do is make you see that every single town in America is not like yours. The kids in this town would NOT be expected to bring in an article regarding current world news. If asked THEY would complain that they can’t afford the drive to the library or the newspaper or magazine cost. I never said *I* had any conflict what-so-ever with lack of resources. Clearly I do have a lack of resources. I even have a library card to my local university - and use it very often!
Your personal attacks are not necessary. I only returned to find that one article demonstrating how we are seeing an increased rate of shingles due to lack of natural exposure. If I find it, I’ll return, otherwise I’ve answered all you’ve asked.
You’ll notice that I don’t reply to those assumed threats returning because what happened prior to indoor plumbing will not play out in today’s world.
“Doctors are required by the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 to report adverse reactions to vaccines. You can look it up.”
Words on paper. It is not a law, it is not mandated, it is not practiced. Who do they report to? VAERS? The doctors in this state are under the impression that the *thy shalt fill out paperwork police” are not watching them.
“You will have to read each chapter and check the bibliography at the end.” Yea, I did that. In your mind is that proof of some vaccine reporting agency existing? They get these numbers from trials, very small trials.
In your link, I couldn’t find anything that said those babies were Breastfed. If I’m missing it, please point it out. Thanks.
Contrary to “breast is best” and all the other advertising, the majority of US babies are still formula-fed. If you have something claiming they all breastfeed, I would be interested to see it.
“Dana wrote “According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, only 2.1% of adults aged 18 to 64 are immunized against tetanus, diphtheria and whooping cough,”
“Again, you quote something without saying where it is from.”
Well there goes that lack of reading comprehension again. This part of the sentence was your clue: “According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention”
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# NPMommyon 06 Sep 2008 at 6:29 pm
Dana- if breastfeeding was completely protective against vaccine preventable diseases such as pertussis- as in previous posts you seem to imply- why would we need to vaccinate in countries where the vast majorities of babies are exclusively breastfed for over 1 year? Countries, say in sub-Saharan Africa like Zambia where I spent a year working as a nurse. Where babies are breastfed and yes, they still get measles, pertussis, chicken pox. Why did babies get these diseases long before formula was ever introduced? Breastfeeding alone is not completely protective which is why I breastfed my son but also got him his vaccines.
Dr. Crislip, Dr. Hall - or others please note Dana quotes from Dr. Robert Sear’s Vaccine Book. This book has been read by countless numbers of moms who take his word as gospel truth about vaccines. Please consider reviewing this book- I would love to hear what you have to say about it.
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